Electrolytes

[Simone]

HI everyone,

My training partner and I are at odds as to whether she she put electrolyte in our hydration bladders or not.

We are currently training around 4-6 hours per session 1-2 times per week, plus our daily work as PT's. As it has been so hot we have found we have been needing more and more electrolyte as the distacne increases, but haven't been carrying enough, or so we think.

Our last two runs went like this:

1. 31kms, just under 4kms, mix of hills, fire trail and single track, temp was good, a cooler day, approx 24 degrees, not too humid. I had 2litres of water in the bladder and about 400ml Enduro electrolye, and then a Gatorade to have back at the car post-run. Felt OK as it was not that hot. Had two wees on the run, one at the start and one 3 hours into, but very little (sorry if this is too much info!)

2. 24kms (all hills) 4:06hours, 28 degrees, very humid. Had 3ltrs in the bladder and 400mls Enduro and had to ration it until I got back to the car for the Gatorade, still had some water left and had topped up bladder with an extra litre - no wees at all and didn't go to the bathroom for about 7 hours in total (wierd as I have a bladder the size of a pea and spend my life there).


So, the questions is, are we getting enough electrolytes, as we are aware if we don't that this will hinder our performance massiviely, and should we add it to our bladders or just pack more in our packs? I don't want to wreck the bladder either! And will it be too much to just sip on electrolyte all the time??


Any suggestions??
Thanks,

Simone

[Osbert]

see if hammer endurolytes work for you. I only put water in my hydration bladder as I find that that I get turned off by sweet drinks on a long run.  I'll still have sports drinks but washed down with plain water. Going to work with hammer perpetuem in a 3hr bottle, sports drink in the other and water in the hydration baldder.

BTW, we pray for 28 degree weather here in Singapore.

[Jaci]

Great question Simone ... I had a similar experience to yours where I needed to pee before the run (but didn't), ran about 30km of trails (around 30deg C and humid), consumed at least 3 litres of water ... and still didn't need to pee until I got up from an afternoon sleep .. which I had because I felt shattered .. no wonder!!

I also put a post on FB recently (if you haven't seen it already, check out 'The Unofficial Australian North Face 100 site at http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unofficial-Australian-North-Face-100/183848461633391?ref=ts  - tons of useful posts, info and inspiring stories) ...

anyway ... on my post I was commenting that I had lost a total 3.3kg of weight on my last long run (weighed pre run with pack, water, etc etc .. then post run with no peeing!), and the only explanation is that I sweated out over 3 litres of sweat that was evaporated .. the rest had me drenched!

My point is that I think we lose so much more in sweat evaporation than we realise, and it might be a really interesting experiment to do what I did, a few times, and see just what you're losing.  I have no idea what that would equate to in terms of electrolytes, but it surely must make an impact.

I emailed a GP friend (keen ultra trail runner) and he said that essentially, if you are eating during the run you will get the electrolytes you need via the food ... keep up the water though.  I'm guessing that if I have a cup of the electrolyte drink at each check-point, that will suffice ... but will be also carrying an additive for my water in case.  I think that some of the gels etc ... Osbert was referring to something similar, have electrolytes in them as well.

We recently purchased (online) some Elete http://new.eletewater.com/   ... recommended by friends who did the MDS and found it worked great (I figure if it's good enough for an ultra run in the desert, it must be good!).  It is pure electrolytes, no sugar etc, but I personally find it makes the water taste like bore water ... yukkk!!  However, it is supposed to be good .. especially if you don't want the carbs as a filler.

I don't know if all that is of any help, and hopefully others will contribute their shilling's worth so that we can all make the most of the wealth of knowledge and experience out there

cheers,
Jaci.

[Simone]

Hi Jac, thanks for your reply.

I forgot to mention that for the last two runs I have GAINED 1-1.5kgs! I seem to lose it in a day or two, and don't really feel heavier bit the scales don't lie! I weighed myself before the run and then first thing the next morning and there it was. Don't know if it's fluid retention or I ate too much post run! I have tened to miss lunch as we are running (we go when we drop the kids off to school and run til about 1-2pm, or 3pm if its a longer run) so I have just been having a protein shake and gatorade straight after as it is all I can really stomach, and then maybe some fruit and yoghurt before dinner. then I've been eating meat & vegies, nothing too exciting unless I have two teaspoons of low fat ice cream! Breakfast was a bowl of porridge and then on the run I had half a weight watchers muffin bar (they go down well while running) my running partner had the other half as she forgt hers! And then a mini hot cross bun and about 8 power gel chews and one enduro drink. So I don't think we are stuffing ourselves!

I'm telling you all this to give you an idea of whats going in and whats not coming out! Yesterday I did a run at work for 1.15hrs (I'm a PT) and that burnt 350cals according to my HR monitor, and then two hours later the run we did burnt 1600cals - not sure what going on!

[Benjamin]

Thanks for bringing up this topic as it is one of the most important for long distance events and if you get it wrong it can have a major effect.

I always struggle with my nutrition, not too sure why as I have practiced lots of different food and fluid plans. In the past I have struggled towards the end of an Ironman as my stomach shuts down and I cannot process any more food or fluid. I have put this down to going too fast, having too many carbs and not enough water.

Over an Ultra like TNF 100 if we only have water we are in danger of getting hypernatremia where we flush out the soduim by having too much water and not enough sodium and electrolytes. So this means we need to get enough electrolytes but risk overloading the stomach with carbs if we get the solution wrong (too strong) or have too much.

I don't know what the answer is and am no expert so I welcome lots of other opinions from others as to what works and what doesn't. The other thing we have to remember is that everyone is different and what works for one may not work the same for everyone.

For me my longest run in this build up so far is 55km with a mixture of hills and undulations, flat sections etc. I ran for about 5hrs 15mins, wore a pack weighing 5.4kg in quite hot and humid conditions (central Queensland). I drank at least 3L of water, 1x 600ml Gatorade, had 4x gels, 1x packet of powerbar gel lollies and had a 600ml coke at about 50km and I still lost 4.2kg in bodyweight so was still quite dehydrated. I have slowed down from previous training runs which has helped quite a lot but because all my runs are in hot and humid conditions (sometimes up to 96%) I am still losing too much weight through dehydration.

My Plan is to only have water in the 2L bladder, eat gels every 45mins, have lollies and elctolyte at the aid stations and I might carry a 600ml bottle with handholder to put in electolyte for inbetween the CP'S. I'm hoping that because it will be much cooler and the humidity so much lower that I will not lose as much fluid through sweating but I think the most important thing is to plan ahead and practice it in training before the day.

Good luck everyone, not too much longer to go. Getting very excited now.

Benny

[Simone]

Thanks Ben,

We have a test day this Sunday (approx 6-7 hours) to help us practice some strategies and try a few new ones. We have done a lot of our runs in the Sydney heatwave (one on that 42 degree day, 3 hours of solid hills) so I am looking forwarded to the cooler change and we hope that the BM conditions will seem much more tolerable than what we have been training in. It sounds like you are doing a similar thing with food and fluid to us, I still can't understand stand why I come home drenched to the bone and weigh nearly 2kg more the next morning! It was the hypernatraemia concern that made me send this message in the first place in regards to my weightgain (which goes a day later).

Good luck, I am getting excited to, its coming a little too quickly, on the other hand I want it over with!

Simone

[John]

Hi Simone,

Have you weighed yourself as you get back home from your run? It might help to rule out (or in) the post-run meals as the reason for the weight gain.

As for an electrolyte plan, energy gels every 45minutes (caffinated, of course), and a coke/water 50/50 mix that I keep separate from my water are what I need for long stuff.

I'll be eating energy bars during the run since I like to eat and I'm not trying to go super fast. On that point, if you think depletion of nutrients might slow you down in the long run, maybe try eating breaks in your runs... the trade off might just be worth it, especially if you aiming to just get the job done. Vegemite sandwiches do a lot of good in that department. White, crusts off, of course cut into triangles even! The luxury! I've often heard people getting sick of "fake" food in long events... gels, bars, powders, etc. I've not heard anyone complain of eating too many vegemite sandwiches and the salt punch is pretty wonderful.

[Andrew]

Hi all,

Very concerning subject and everyone is different. I have compleed two 55km trails so not very experienced but I found that the most important thing was making sure that I was properly hydrated at the start of the race with plenty of water and an electrolyte drink. I have then carried water in the bladder and drank 2 cups of an electrolyte drink at the CP's. On top of the usual lollies and food bars that I carry with me, I stop and make sure I take the time to eat plenty at the CP's. Salted potatoes, fruit buns/cake and later in the race a sandwich or two to get something solid in. this obviously takes a bit of time at the CP's but I reckon it saves me in the end. I have tried gels during the long runs but end up feeling sick. Coke is always good near to the end for a boost. the problem with the TNF is that the CP's are pretty well spread out and I will probalby carry a bottle with an electrolyte drink in addition to the water in the bladder. I love food and i don't know how I will be feeling by the time I reach the pizza van, but it's tempting!!!

Good luck all,

It's like being a child again waiting for Xmas

[Simone]

I am all for the vegemite sandwiches and coke, even though, being a trainer, my two biggest pet hates have been, and will always be, white bread and Coke! I am going to swallow my pride, and along with it some Wonder White and flat 'Draino'. I have recently completed a course run by Sports Dieticians Australia in Nutrition for Exercise and Sport, and some of the best nutritionists in the country recommended - you guessed it - white bread and vegemite and flat bloody Coke! (my clients would laugh their heads off if they read this).

I too can't stomach too many gels and sweet stuff and will crave something salty, althought the pizza may be overdoing it, but I tried a small packet of Shapes the other day to break up the fruit buns and gels etc and they were great...................it's all just trial and error I guess.

Thanks for the tips, keep them coming!

[Tylana]

Hi Guys,
This is a tough area of training/racing to get right as there are so many variables as noted above by other postees!  I, like so many others have struggled gastrointestinally.....just ask my poor training partner Andy when the combination has been off balance!  There is a process of trial and error as we each have an individual response but keeping the exercise science principles and research in mind is also important.  Here are some principles to keep in mind......... distance events require adequate fluid, electrolyte and carbohydrate replacement and not always in that order at every stage of the event or training.  The stomach can only empty approximately 300-600ml fluid per hour under exercise conditions however gastric emptying can be accelerated by ensuring isotonic solutions that are cold (7-15deg) with more than 200ml being ingested at the one time.  Volumes less than this tend to 'slosh' around and not clear and can lead to sensations of nausea.  Especially so for ultras, electrolyte intake needs to include 60mmolL-1 sodium, 60mmolL-1 chloride and 1.5mmolL-1 magnesium and 1.5mmolL-1 potassium per litre of water.  Hyponatremia is a real certainty if these essentials are not replaced on an hour by hour basis.  If ingesting carbohydrates in the form of fluid or in conjunction with electrolytes then the concentration should not exceed 5-10%.  There will be issues of absorptions if fluid forms of CHO are greater than this as the fluid then becomes hypertonic...essentially drawing cellular and circulation fluids into the gut due to greater concentration gradient.  Remember also that the body can only process about 200-300calories per hr under exercise conditions.  Put more in than this and gastroinestinal issues will result.  CHO intake should come from a variety of sources and should include glucose, fructose and maltodextrins.  You won't get the electrolyte requirements for an ultra event from the food you eat, so you will most certainly need to supplement with electrolyte fluids or tablets/capsules and this will need to be done during the legs and not just at check points due to the length of time it can take to get to the CPs in TNF.  It is important to get your CHO intake from forms of solid food and not just gels.  Liquid forms of gels over lengthy times have been associated with blockage of the glomerular filtration units within the kidney and have resulted in kidney failure, with some athletes requiring dialysis.  The key here is to eat solid food combined with gels and adequate fluids.  Understanding the different types of fatigue are important also…ie: dizziness…blood glucose needs addressing, wobbly legs….muscle/liver glycogen needs addressing; central fatigue….slowing down/stopping, and all of the above!  As soon as you can’t do mental maths calculation when you could earlier is a sign that you need to address blood glucose or ensure adequate fluid/electrolyte replacement in conjunction with your CHO intake.
There is a lot of information available, but always ensure that what you read/hear/seek relates to ultra distance events as requirements for shorter events vary considerably.  One of the bibles for runners is ‘The Lore of Running’ by Dr Tim Noakes….medical doctor, physiologist and endurance athlete.  This is a must for anyone keen to learn more about all aspects of running.  Scientific journals such as the Journal of Physiology are also a good read. Trial and error will inevitably form a part of what we all do, but ensure that this is done on a basis of accurate and evidenced based information and not just hearsay.  There is too much as risk otherwise.  Happy running and looking forward to May 14!     Cheers Tylana   Exercise Physiologist, Physiotherapist

[Ian]

Interesting topic and fun to experiment.

I never eat gels as i cant stand them but i do munch on nuun tablets occassionly. They fizz up in your mouth and are good fun. Never had cramps whilst running so i guess they do the trick.

last year i just filled up my water bladder and popped a nuun tablet in at each CP. ate as much as i could and that was it. Even had the pizza and i finished in reasonably decent shape.

Think i had 1 wee throughout the whole day but i never felt dehyrdated and I drank well over 10litres of water. Im not the best drinker so i just had to force myself to take sips constantly.

Such a fun event!

cheers       part-time-ultra-runner.blogspot.com



ian

[Simone]

You make it sound so easy Ian! Or maybe I am making it too hard??

Thanks Tylana for your fabulous input, I have had all of my books out and am quite consumed by it all (very sad really). Just want to try and get it right on the day, or close to it anyway.

As Ian said, it's a constant experiment, and we have 8 weeks left to play around with it and hopefully it all comes together on May 14th! Happy training!

Simone

PS I think I need to sell my house and get a single story one, as yesterdays test run has shattered my thighs! Made it very hard to cart the groceries up the stairs this afternoon as the DOMS settled in for the night!

[Ian]

Hi Simone,

Last year i was very much like yourself, doing all kinds of experiments to see what worked best - and to be honest, looking back, that was the fun part of the training.

This time round im just keeping things really simple.

2 litres of water between each checkpoint seemed to do the trick. 1 or 2 nuun tablets too.

Then eating plenty along the way too. I probably over ate but im pretty greedy and like my food and it takes your mind off the running.

[Dean]

Thought I'd jump into the discussion as a newbie.  At the start of training I didnt drink much and had a couple of Gu's on a 20+km run.  Wondered why I finished absolutely shattered, shaking and fatigued.  Derrrr!!!  Now I fill up my 2.5 litre bladder, a few drops of elete (electrolytic salt), a ziploc bag of nuts, dates, raisins, a couple of Gu's (which I usually don't use) and a Wallaby bar (or equivalent), and away we go.  First drink is at 30 minutes no matter what, then drink and eat as I feel like it (usually on a walking period) all the way.  Big drink at the end, finish off the nuts etc, stretch and a 10 minute dip in the ocean.  Does wonders, but as a couple of you have said, we are all different and you've got to know what works for you.

All the Best,

Dean

[Osbert]

Dean's right about the big drink/feed and dip.  It's not just about your training run but how well/fast you recover for your next one after that